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Dirty Forum Alt
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Posted - 2016.08.16 12:22:44 -
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As for researching the target before the war goes live - most of them change their behavioral patterns pretty significantly the second they get the wardec notification....And even the ones who don't change right away certainly change as soon as you kill a few of them derping along in their old hangouts.
Ironically back in the days when high-sec corps dug in and defended their homes, the watch list was fairly superfluous - but in the modern EVE where the targets run away at the first hint of danger it was quite useful.
As for locator agents, a few points:
#1 - I think you underestimate how much grinding goes in to unlocking locator agents - particularly if you want/need them across multiple regions or you are running them on a massive scale - because you can't re-use the same agent over and over, you have to move to a new agent every time you want a locator... I forget what the reset time per agent is but it is something on the order of a full 30 minutes between locates you can run...
#2 - There *is* a counter to locator agents - it is called "moving". Even the fasted level 4 locator still has a full 4 minute delay - and you can move a lot in 4 minutes. I've had a lot of war targets do this to me - and honestly even though they didn't fight me in open combat I respected these players for putting in the time to fight back in their own way. Without the watch list this method is extra effective - because there is no way for them to tell whether you have relocated or simply logged off without burning another locator agent even (by which point you can have moved again).
#3 - It isn't free in terms of isk - 250k per locate really does add up. Fast. Particularly when you end up running 5-10 locates trying to run down a single target who keeps moving around...and when you have dozens of active targets to try to hunt. |
Dirty Forum Alt
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Posted - 2016.08.16 12:32:29 -
[2] - Quote
All of that being said I wouldn't necessarily mind an Observation Station to get intel on my targets - it would be a minor annoyance (for me anyway) - but once it was set up it would just be free intel. Lets face it, war targets who aren't willing to commit to a fight vs whatever solo ship I bring to *their* home system certainly aren't going to come to fight me in *my own* home system where I can reship at will, etc...
My only real objection to it is it is needless extra setup and I truly don't believe it would put the mercs at any more risk than they have now - because nobody but another merc corp would ever dare to touch it. |
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Posted - 2016.08.16 13:36:39 -
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Dracvlad wrote:I have noted a lot of good PvP players say jump into something cheap and go and kill them, however a good player can rip through them like a wolf among sheep. I have been in situations where I have destroyed multiple ships around me. Its a factor of having the right ship and them having poor DPS and poor tankls, add to that OGB and implants and drugs and you really can go to town on people. When mercs say jump into a T1 frig and fight they know that they will in the main kick their ass badly, but they can make mistakes or there can be enough with the right comp that can tip the balance. Most of the time it is a slaughter.
As one of the people who has said this on many occasions - we don't mean they should hop in a cheap t1 frigate and come alone....or even with just a couple of people. If using t1 frigates to take on pirate cruisers fit for blapping small fast ships (which are quite common these days) complete with off-grid boosts/etc...I wouldn't recommend engaging with fewer than 15-20 newbs in t1 frigates. And unless you are going against a solo target, yes, all the frigates will probably die....but if you kill just 1 faction fit cynabal...you've won the fight. And not just the isk war. Mercs/wardec types take their killboards *very* seriously - they are going to be far more embarassed about losing a faction fit cynabal to a bunch of noobs than the noobs are going to be about losing a 5m isk frigate to a bunch of faction fit cruisers...
If you want to *win* the fight - then I'd plan on bringing at least 10-15 frigates *per* enemy ship. This is where the wardec spam comes into play - because *if* the "victims" coordinated, they *do* have these numbers. They *could* field 200 t1 frigates vs every 10-man gate-camp - if they wanted to put in a little effort to set it up.
Also when going against people in cruisers geared towards killing smaller targets as well as big targets - there is nothing preventing the mission runners from fitting up PvP fit cruisers/battlecruisers either...which will reduce the number of pilots needed to achieve the required damage output.
As a practical, real, in-game example:
About 3 weeks into EVE my PvE alliance was war-decced by "End of Line" alliance - led by Suitonia (whom you may have heard of).
We formed a fleet of 20 assorted frigates/cruisers/battlecruisers vs the 5-6 people they could field at the time - and although we took losses, we got 4 respectable kills, and we would easily have won the isk war had one of our members not decided to afk mission in his faction fit navy raven...
Additionally, on a personal level - I developed a 300k isk (at the time) atron fit that I fell in love with, and built up my PvP confidence amazingly, even though I died more than I killed. I even caught Suitonia's Taranis in my atron's scram/web - and put him into hull before he managed to kill me. Had my fleet members been paying attention, we would have killed Suitonia - but even though Suitonia got away alive, it is still a happy and proud memory of my first war in EVE.
People are missing out by not giving themselves the opportunity to experience the adrenaline rush of standing up to the bullies and dealing damage to them... And the beauty of t1 fit suicide frigates is...no real loss when you do die - whereas your opponents *care* about every single ship they lose. |
Dirty Forum Alt
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Posted - 2016.08.16 14:17:38 -
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Dracvlad wrote:If we could start to push something like that it would improve the game, but remember just dying without a kill is not going to do anything, that is why the OS was at least something.
That is why I recommend 15-20 minimum - because even with bare minimum skills that should put you up over the 1000 dps level - which means you can nuke even a tanky pirate cruiser in about 60 seconds, and you even stand a chance against light rr support - so this is the level at which I would be pretty confident of at least getting 1 worthwhile kill.
I dropped it to 10-15 per enemy in larger engagements as once the engagement scales up beyond a single target you don't need quite as much overwhelming dps *per target* - since you can focus everything on them 1 by 1 and work through them. Even 1-200 vs 10 you'll take heavy losses - but you stand a pretty good chance of actually *winning* that fight and holding the field to gather up the loot (which means you probably make a profit, honestly)
I definitely understand there is no fun in just losing...But if you can gather the people you really can deal damage - and once you deal damage to them and "win" the war...well...that makes it *fun* - at least for everyone I've ever met in EVE.
edit: and while 20 ships at bare minimum skills, which I'm calling ~50 dps each, is 1000 dps...
20 maxed out incursuses can deal 300 dps each - which would raise that up to 6000 dps...
So depending on your character ages involved your actual dps is probably somewhere in between those values. |
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Posted - 2016.08.16 14:43:42 -
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baltec1 wrote:Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity.
Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec.
I'm not even disagreeing with your core point...but just for the record we determined it was a bit over a 0.25% chance of being ganked *per trip*. And CODE. freighter ganks are *not* funded by charity 
But yes, if you keep your cargo under 1 billion isk and just autopilot your freighter anywhere in high sec, you will only be ganked once every 400 trips or so. |
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Posted - 2016.08.16 14:59:05 -
[6] - Quote
Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip...
Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it.
This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips.
It also has the added bonus of making your trips go *much* faster than autopilotting.
And yes, I'm a math nerd
edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you. |
Dirty Forum Alt
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Posted - 2016.08.16 15:16:15 -
[7] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip... Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it. This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips. It also has the added bonus of making your trips go *much* faster than autopilotting. And yes, I'm a math nerd edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you. However for 10bn they would step up to a blackbird which adds very little to their cost, say 15m and negate your webber.
True...but there is only around a 5 second window in which you are vulnerable with range bonused webs - so they would need pretty perfect timing.
Not saying it can't be done - but it is difficult - particularly if they are trying to coordinate it with a -10 pilot. |
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Posted - 2016.08.16 18:26:58 -
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baltec1 wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks. Always have.
While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie...
A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters. |
Dirty Forum Alt
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Posted - 2016.08.16 18:35:29 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:baltec1 wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks. Always have. While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie... A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters. Most that die in highsec are killed in wars oddly enough
Well that I have no way to track - but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Just saying they don't go to low/null/wh space often enough to actually die more out there |
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:29:31 -
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Faylee Freir wrote:Actually i dont think you have sufficient proof to back up that freighters and jump freighters dont travel as frequently in null, low, or wspace. One thing to consider is that there are 1090 Hisec systems compared to 817 lowsec, 3524 nullsec, and 2499+ wspace systems. I will admit that hisec, specifically jita / amarr and the pipe between are the lifestream of commerce and trade in new eden... So i would say that when you take into consideration that less freighters die in all of hisec compared to the magnitude that makes up the rest of new eden its fair to say that freighter ganking is in a good place.
#1 - I said you were right that Jump Freighters die more in low/null/etc - since that is their primary usage area out there - I only said regular *non-jump* freighters die more in high sec.
#2 - Look at the killboard...it is pretty obvious that significantly more die in high-sec than anywhere else (again, just the regular 4 freighter types)
#3 - Pointing out that there are only 1090 high-sec systems vs 6840+ other systems actually makes it 7 times more impressive that more of them die in high sec - so you are actually citing evidence contrary to what you are trying to say with that one
#4 - I'm not even disagreeing with you - I think ganking is just fine as-is in relation to freighters and everything else. I'm *only* disagreeing with your silly assertion that "less freighters die in high sec than outside of high-sec" - because it is clearly false. Whether they die from ganking/wars, I don't really care - most of them clearly die in high-sec, as shown by the killboards.
I do not think it is unreasonable for haulers to factor in a 6.25 million isk loss per freighter trip for their eventual, inevitable ganks. I think they need to just suck it up and move on with life, or take precautions to make it less likely (or both).
But I also think it is silly to make up random claims to support a case that is already strong - it actually makes it less credible. Stick to the proven facts |
Dirty Forum Alt
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:42:40 -
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Solecist Project wrote:I'm sorry, Dirty, but counting numbers of systems is silly.
What matters is population count, which changes this considerably.
Don't let yourself get fooled.
I didn't bring it up - I just pointed out that the way he was using it was silly
Population count *would* work...although the null-blobs raise the population of 0.0 fairly considerably...that one is harder to put firm numbers on.
And I did already say the only reason more die in high sec is because the vast majority only fly in high sec.
As a percentage, more of the freighters that fly outside of high sec die...
But it is still silly/ridiculous to say that "more of them die outside of high sec"... |
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:50:24 -
[12] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Dracvlad wrote:We could go gank some freighter wrecks, 2 Catalysts can do it in a 0.5 system if we don't get shot by anyone before CONCORD comes to blap us. No, you can't, because there's a CONCORD blob there... ... just sayjan. This is an example of someone with inferior knowledge of mechanics... Granted only a handful of people know what im referring to. Elaborate
I actually found this out myself only recently when I posted a thread in the Features & Ideas forum to propose a nerf to CONCORD to compensate for what I perceived to be the problem of having CONCORD already on grid.
Apparently even with CONCORD pre-spawned on grid you still get a significant delay before they act. I forget the exact numbers quoted - but it was only something on the order of 10-ish seconds instead of 22....so certainly harder - but doable, in theory... |
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Posted - 2016.08.16 22:11:19 -
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Solecist Project wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:
I actually found this out myself only recently when I posted a thread in the Features & Ideas forum to propose a nerf to CONCORD to compensate for what I perceived to be the problem of having CONCORD already on grid.
Apparently even with CONCORD pre-spawned on grid you still get a significant delay before they act. I forget the exact numbers quoted - but it was only something on the order of 10-ish seconds instead of 22....so certainly harder - but doable, in theory...
When i was ganking in my tripple volley thrasher with concord on grid ... ... i got two volleys out before i died. That's 4ish seconds iirc. Been a while. I am not aware of the hp of freighter wrecks, but i thought it's more than 2k-ish.
Well the 10-ish seconds did come from a ganker who was arguing with me - and I don't care enough to experiment and find out I'm afraid...so take it with a grain of salt...
But I"m pretty sure it is what Faylee is referring to in any case
edit: Oh and freighter wreck HP I did look up not long ago, so that one I actually do have a number for - 15k hp |
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Posted - 2016.08.17 23:03:36 -
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Shallanna Yassavi wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:
The time to shoot with concord isnt what i was referring to. Im talking about a mechanic literally only 3-4 people know of that is just another tool in the pocket. Just letting you know its out there, but im not going to make it public since i was asked not to share it and its a good mechanic that would just get cries and nerfs.
Go to SISI and start messing around if you want to find ways to bend mechanics in your favor.
You don't need to explain the mechanic. Now that we know it exists and that you how to use it, all we have to do is fly something shiny enough for you to use it, while we record as many details as possible. Then we take it to Sisi and try what we think you did.
Well...if you do....don't forget to pre-spawn concord to make him use it |
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Posted - 2016.08.17 23:18:43 -
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Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Shallanna Yassavi wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:
The time to shoot with concord isnt what i was referring to. Im talking about a mechanic literally only 3-4 people know of that is just another tool in the pocket. Just letting you know its out there, but im not going to make it public since i was asked not to share it and its a good mechanic that would just get cries and nerfs.
Go to SISI and start messing around if you want to find ways to bend mechanics in your favor.
You don't need to explain the mechanic. Now that we know it exists and that you how to use it, all we have to do is fly something shiny enough for you to use it, while we record as many details as possible. Then we take it to Sisi and try what we think you did. If it's the one that allows you to appear to be cloaked without a cloak fit even for a few seconds after you start shooting, then no recording will help you. It's a good glitch, but not something that you can work out without it being explained.
While true - if one recorded someone using that glitch (particularly if you did so a few times in a row) - one could get the person using it banned... Which could be a decent consolation prize. |
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